Since we first published the Robb Wolf/Whole9 Fish Oil Calculator in February 2010, we’ve tracked more than 1,500,000 unique visitors to that page. We’ve also noted over the last year that clients, workshop attendees and readers have been reasonably compliant with taking their fish oil per the Calculator’s recommendations. However, we’re afraid they’ve been much less compliant in making aggressive changes to their diets and lifestyles – changes designed to naturally correct their omega-6 to omega-3 ratio.
You’ve Heard Us Say…
Those of you who’ve attended our Foundations of Nutrition workshops in the past year have heard us say, “You can’t fish oil your way out of crappy diet.” You’ve also heard us say, “If our Fish Oil Calculator says you need to take 117 pills a day, we highly recommend you immediately address your dietary and lifestyle factors.” But we still receive questions and comments from people relying far too heavily on fish oil as a fix-all, cure-all. We, and Robb Wolf (the brains behind the dose recommendations) thought it was high time to clarify our positions in the Calculator.
Supplement, Not Replacement
We’ve observed folks attempting to use high-dose fish oil as an “offset” for the poor quality food they continue to eat. Suffice it to say, that is not the way this stuff works. Fish oil is a supplement, designed to provide a helping hand in managing systemic inflammation. It’s not a replacement for making good dietary and lifestyle choices. So we’ve consulted with Robb Wolf to revise the recommendations, and make it outstandingly clear that we recommend you take high-dose fish oil only for a short period of time, and only while you’re making big changes to your diet and lifestyle. Once you’ve done that, you can quickly step down to a maintenance dose that will help you offset your (carefully controlled) omega-6 intake and manage any systemic inflammation that may still be present.
These recommendations, along with specific “fish oil factors” corresponding with high dose and maintenance doses, are now spelled out clearly in our new and improved Fish Oil Calculator. Click on over to arrive at your recommended daily amount, based on your bodyweight, dietary and lifestyle factors and specific brand of fish oil.
Additional Recommendations
After your three weeks at a higher dose, if you still have “symptoms” of inflammation (obesity, autoimmune dysfunction, chronic injury, etc.), we still want you to drop down to the maintenance dose. Fish oil is not magic, and (like many things in life) a little is good, but overdoing it is no good at all. If you continue to work hard to manage the lifestyle and dietary factors that are perpetuating those ongoing symptoms, you will see improvement in your symptoms. Be patient – it took you years to arrive at this point, and three weeks isn’t going to be long enough to fix everything.
If you’ve been eating “Paleo” for a few weeks, managing your omega-6 to omega-3 ratio (including lots of wild-caught, cold-water fish and grass-fed or pastured meats, limiting your nut and seed consumption and eliminating vegetable oils), sleeping enough, managing stress and not over-training, you might not need any fish oil supplementation at all. Ideally, we’d arrive at a natural, healthy balance of omega-6 to omega-3 in our natural diets, and while you may find that difficult given your current situation, it’s certainly not impossible.
However, for those of us who generally meet the above criteria, but travel or dine out at restaurants on a regular basis, a steady maintenance dose might not be a bad idea. Most restaurants are using vegetable oils (like canola or soybean) rich in omega-6 for cooking, and serving lower quality (factory-farmed) meat, fish and eggs. Because of these factors, we still take a daily low (maintenance) dose of fish oil to help offset those unwanted (but often unavoidable) omega-6’s that we are exposed to while we’re away from home.
Visit our Fish Oil FAQ
If you’ve got additional questions about fish oil, where it comes from, how to use it, or which brand Whole9 uses and recommends, visit our comprehensive Fish Oil FAQ. We look forward to continuing to serve our community – and Robb’s – with the Fish Oil Calculator. Thanks for visiting.
You mention “eliminating vegetable oils” yet in Whole 30, olive, avocado, coconut and macadamia nut oils are listed in the guide as “best.” Would at least olive and avocado be considered “vegetable”, or is there some better definitive list? I realize it is splitting hairs a bit, but as I use oil quite often, and do not rely on lard, I am struggling to determine where my ratio is.
D&M,
This post reminds me of the Robb’s Paleo podcast #69. Chris Kresser was on talking about the problems he sees with long term fish oil supplementation. Robb didn’t really address it due to, as he called it, “not wanting to get all Jerry Springer” but I was wondering if you guys had a chance to listen and if you had any comments on it.
I eat grassfed beef and have cut back on dark meat chicken skin after hearing about the huge amounts of omega 6s they have, and also still supplement with good quality fish oil based on your Fish Oil Calculator. I am wondering if you have softened your stance on fish oil supplementation based on possible long term effects.
@Lisa: Great question, sorry for the confusion here. We (and many others) use the term “vegetable oil” as a catch-all, not necessarily a precise term. In this case, we’re referring to oils such as canola, – corn, safflower, sunflower, peanut, and soybean – all loaded with omega-6 fatty acids, and all fragile (prone to oxidation) when exposed to air and heat.
We like saturated fats like coconut oil, pastured/organic/clarified butter or grass-fed, organic tallow for cooking. Other types of oil that have high concentrations of monounsaturated fats (like EVOO and avocado oil) are a good choice for dressings or sauces – served cold. Hope that helps.
@Kevin: Ideally, we would want everyone to get all the nutrients they need from the food they eat (and from the healthy environments in which they live). However, for most of us, no matter how diligent we are about our diets, our lifestyles, our sunshine, etc., we need a little helping hand in some things that matter for our health. Fish oil (EPA/DHA supplementation) is one of those things. We see no issue with continuing at a low (maintenance) dose long-term – for me, that means just a teaspoon or two a day. However, as with many things, just because some is good doesn’t mean more is better, and in certain circumstances, high dose fish oil taken for extended periods of time MAY do more harm than good.
It’s less that we’ve softened our stance, and more that we’ve refined the recommendations to REALLY hammer home the need to manage inflammation via diet and lifestyle first, and not to rely too heavily on supplementation as a cure-all. This is Robb’s position as well, as he’s explained numerous times in various podcasts.
Best,
Melissa
Please remember to disclose that you receive an affiliate fee for your fish oil recommendation!
Cheryl, thanks for the “helpful” reminder, but it’s wholly unnecessary. We’ve been crystal clear about our professional business relationship with SFH since its inception almost a year ago. In addition, we’ve been using their fish oil personally – and recommending it to our clients – for almost TWO years, since stumbling upon it in a natural food store in Brunswick, ME. We are proud to be associated with such a family-oriented, quality-focused company, and are happy to remind our readers of our partnership with SFH every chance we get.
What do you guys think about the recommendation that total PUFA should be kept to less than 4% of total calories? That would be about 9g/day for a 2000-cal diet of total PUFA (n6 and n3). It basically means that it’s more beneficial to reduce dietary sources of n6 than it is to balance ratios by increasing consumption of n3, and might be the reason why long-term use of fish oil (by standard American dieters) is associated with higher risk of certain diseases that fish oil supplements are supposed to prevent.
Kristen at Food Renegade did a post about this, and Dr. Kurt Harris at PaNu mentions it in his “Getting Started” area.
Jenn: You wrote, “It basically means that it’s more beneficial to reduce dietary sources of n6 than it is to balance ratios by increasing consumption of n3.” And we couldn’t agree more! We go into great detail about exactly HOW folks can best manage their N6:N3 ratio at our workshops, NOT by upping their fish oil, but by changing their diets to minimize the amount of N6. (We spend a solid 30 minutes on this topic alone, in fact!)
We’re all saying the same thing – in fact, we’ve all been saying the same thing all along. But your note is exactly why we’ve clarified the calculator. Despite the volume of good information out there about how to manage inflammation via improving your diet, folks were still trying to use high doses of fish oil as a “quick fix”. Which, in high doses for long lengths of time, may turn out not be a “fix” at all.
Best,
Melissa
Hey guys, thanks once again for the fantastic resource. I’ve been pretty consistent with my fish oil intake as per your old calculator for quite a long time now, as well as extending my Whole30 by a week now with no view to slow down with that anytime soon. I was just wondering who would fit into the 0.25-0.75 categories?
As I said I’m currently eating squeaky clean, but my food quality isn’t as good as I’d like it to be. I try to buy my meat from butchers rather than supermarkets as often as possible, but I haven’t made the jump to grass-fed/wild-caught, etc. On top of that I have a serious weakness for macadamias which I now have to wean myself off before they replace my sugar addiction! Based on that, what factor would you suggest I fit into? I’m thinking about 0.3, but it’s hard to tell without descriptions of those factors. Thanks!
Any suggestion on dosage timing and amount per dose? For example, if I need 12 grams omega 3 a day, how should I split it up? If I take it on a empty stomach it makes me sick. If I take 4 grams at once it makes me sick. Should I just eat 6 times a day and keep the dose small or is it a problem with the type of fish oil I’m using?
Hey Matt,
I’m not sure what Dallas & Melissa recommend, but the way I take mine is just to spread them out throughout the day over 5 doses. My understanding is they don’t necessarily need to be taken with meals. I’m currently taking 7.5g/day, so I take 1.5g at a time, regularly throughout the day, and the last dose being shortly before I go to sleep. I find it easiest to put my required 25 capsules in a small container that I take with me for the day, and I set myself alarms on my phone so that I’m always reminded when it’s time to take it!
Hey Dallas and Melissa,
Awesome presentation at The Athlete’s Lab this weekend. I learned even more the 2nd time around, and my wife is reviewing the coure packet and the Whole30 Success Guide with a lot of interest. We just made a rather large investment in the fish oil that you reccomend, as well as a couple of gallons of cocnut oil from Tropical Traditions. Do you know if there are any issues with high dose fish oil in someone who is pregnant?
Thanks again for sharing the knowledge!!
Vitaly,
The significant “modification” to Robb’s recommendations is that he thinks no one should be on high-dose (>0.25 factor) for more than 3 weeks. So, like we’ve tried to emphasize, fix your diet and lifestyle, even if that means not taking as much fish oil as the “old” recommendations might have said. So… do your best with meat & fish quality, and go easy on the nuts (though macadamias are your best bet there). If it’s a cost issue, ditch the (pricey) macadamias and put that money towards better quality (i.e. grass-fed, organic) meat. Short answer: the 0.3 factor doesn’t really exist anymore. Stay at the 0.25 or below beyond the first 3 weeks.
Matt,
First, always take your fish oil with food. Better absorption, less nausea. Second, if even small doses (4g) make you nauseous, I’d be suspicious of your fish oil. Either you’re sensitive to one of the ingredients (soy lecithin?), or it’s old/oxidized/poor quality, and has gone rancid. Try a purer brand, and treat it like gold. Store in the fridge, and keep away from heat/light/air as much as possible. Hope this helps.
John,
Thanks for your kind words. We’re very wary of high-dose fish oil for pregnant ladies, and ALWAYS recommend running it by her physician before starting up. Plenty of literature has shown benefits to taking 3-5 grams (emphasizing DHA) in pregnant women, but we’ll ALWAYS defer to physicians on that one. The other point is that it’s super, super important to cut back on omega-6 rich foods (processed foods, vegetable oils, nuts, etc.) during pregnancy so that enough DHA can be “built into” the cell membranes (especially neurons) of the fetus. Better food is always better than supplementation, and prudence is a virtue…
this is rad. thanks for updating. wanna throw this bit out there so that perhaps it’ll shut a couple of excuses up (as far why i can’t buy fish oil blah blah blah).
i’m on a tight budget lately and regular supps are not in the cards for a while but that doesn’t mean i can chalk up not optimizing my plan to econ factors. case in point is the fish oil deal. i do the most effective free stuff (don’t eat crap, sleep more, don’t train like a dumb dumb) then use a practical solution on the epa dha deal. for me that’s canned sardines in water. i pay about 59 cents for a can and just let the fish oil piggy back on the protein (and i get to eat the bones so i get plenty of calcium and other goodies, there goes the ada excuse about needing dairy for Ca…) if i’m more banged up i just eat another can or two and that’s that. since the calculator gives reccs in grams i found this pretty helpful: the link has a table w/ average epa dha ratings for most of the yummy water critters we’re likely to gobble up when up to our paleo pursuits-
http://www.health.gov/dietaryguidelines/dga2005/report/html/table_g2_adda2.htm
super duper thanks again the site guys, info totally rocks.
This still seems like a ridiculously high amount of fish oil. Is there any literature supporting this intake?
What about this claim?
“Some work has identified that the body will hit a limit (in terms of plasma saturation) on DHA at 1.2 grams per day which is the equivalent of 10X1 gram fish oil capsules. That would also provide 1.8 grams EPA for a total of 3 grams per day of fish oil.”
Source: Lyle http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/qa-2.html
From the same link, also wondering about, “Excessive fish oil can impair the body’s ability to mount a proper immune response, as well as impairing insulin release.”
This high dose is for a therapeutic effect, for relatively short period of time in overweight/inflamed individuals.
If you work with people and understand both gene signaling and histeresis, this makes sense both clinically and in the test tube:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17063032
Interdiscip Top Gerontol. 2007;35:39-68.
Secrets of the lac operon. Glucose hysteresis as a mechanism in dietary restriction, aging and disease.
Mobbs CV, Mastaitis JW, Zhang M, Isoda F, Cheng H, Yen K.
Departments of Neuroscience and Geriatrics, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, 1 Gustave L. Levy Place, New York, NY 10029, USA. charles.mobbs@mssm.edu
If on the other hand, one spends their days jerking off on the interwebs trying, to split hairs about populations that are fucking dying from insulin resistance and systemic inflammation…well.
Hi Rob,
Sorry I do not understand if you’re talking to me or calling me a jerk off. If so, wtf? Anyway…
I was unclear and not referring to the “theraputic” dose being high, but rather the .1-.25ratio ongoing dose being very high compared to other recommendations I’ve seen, so I was asking about clarification from this site.
Here is my current situation, although my questions apply more generally than just to those in my situation:
Active athlete, eat “paleo” + dairy + occasionally whatever I want, ~19%BF, 265lbs, ~3 years training age with heavy weights and I’m a former CFer and current weightlifter.
Your calc recommends:
.1 ratio: 5g EPA+DHA/day
.25 ratio: 13g EPA+DHA/day
and let’s pretend I was sedentary and 40%BF, certainly applies to many people
.75 ratio therapeutic dose: 40g EPA+DHA/day
1 ratio therapeutic, short term dose: 54g EPA+DHA/day
Back to me, right now I take 3g EPA+DHA a day and have for a couple of years. I’m trying to figure out the right dose, like many who use your calculator, but then I read about high fish oil doses being a) ineffective (“Excessive fish oil can impair the body’s ability to mount a proper immune response, as well as impairing insulin release.”) or b) have ill effects “Excessive fish oil can impair the body’s ability to mount a proper immune response, as well as impairing insulin release.”
So on the one hand, reading that 1-3g have proven positive effects and then reading your rec of 5-13g, you can see why I (and many people I know from my gym) have questions about what’s effective and safe.
Shit, sorry man, I just scanned this. The .1-.25 could be had by eating a can of sardines, some wild meat etc. I think anything in that runs in that n-6/n-3 ratio of 1-1 to 2-1 is pretty money. Sorry if I was a dick, trying to keep a lot of plates spinning right now.
Hi,
My fiance and I have been athletes for years and made the leap into the Crossfit world about 11months ago. A lot of our cohorts and trainers tout the benefits of gentle fish oil supplementation, and after much reading and research, we agree with them. However, even extemely low doses wreak havoc on our GI systems. We are buying enteric coated, Kirkland brand 1200mg capsuls. We’ve read that freezing the capsuls may alleviate said GI discomforts, but haven’t had luck with this either.
Recently, we purchased fish oil liquid, thinking that an ingredient in the capsule was disagreeing with both of our bowls, but again, no luck.
Has anyone reported a similar reaction? We’re currently paleo friendly and i’m in the middle of the whole 30 program (which I love- thank you!) We just feel like it would be nice to occasionally supplement our diets with this amazing, inflammation reducing source.
Thank you!
Kate,
Glad to hear your Whole30 is going well. With the fish oil (whether capsules or liquid), always take it WITH food. We do two bites of food, our fish oil, then the rest of our meal. I’d also recommend breaking up your daily dose into a couple mini-doses with different meals. If both the liquid and capsules are bothering both of you, it’s likely that either you’re not taking it with enough food, or it’s straight-up rancid (i.e. oxidized). We are VERY careful of fish oil QUALITY, since those fragile PUFAs can be awesome or terrible – terrible if they’re oxidized (if your fish oil smells fishy at all, throw it out!). The SFH brand is awesome stuff, and they do a great job of “protecting” it during processing. Hope this helps.
Dallas
Hi Robb et al,
I would love to use the calculator, unfortunately, it appears that it is no longer available and you simply give a normal recommended amount. Is there a direct link to a calculator? if so, can you post it? I keep bouncing back and forth from and to the same pages with no calculator in sight! Thanks. fyi, I have a lean athletic body (195lbs, 6’1″), have been on paleo diet for almost 4 weeks and i exercise on my own and at Core Value Fitness in Durango CO. I do need to get more sleep as i am currently in the 6-7 hours range most nights. The fish oil pills I have are 720mg’s of Omega 3 fatty acid.
Jim,
Check out our Fish Oil FAQ here where it specifically addresses your question about dosing: http://whole9life.com/fish-oil-faq/ Robb and we have modified our recommendations, and those simplified recommendations (of 2-4 grams of EPA+DHA daily) reflect our current thinking about dosing. Robb’s guideline is “if you’re small, take 2 grams, and if you’re big, take 4 grams.” We concur.
Dallas