Conversations with a vegetarian
In last week’s post, we touched on some of the challenges associated with a recent set of workshops – talking “Paleo” principles to both meat-eaters and vegetarians at The Mat Yoga Studio in Richardson, TX. If you’ve been reading our articles or have done your own Whole30 program, you know exactly why we believe grains, dairy and legumes make you less healthy. However, as those food groups are often the very foundation of a vegetarian’s diet, relaying that material at a yoga studio doesn’t exactly make us popular. And if those same vegetarians are then slammed with the next portion of our presentation (which starts with, “Eat meat…”), well… that has the potential to bring the entire workshop to a crashing halt.
Enter almost any CrossFit gym and you’ll find that the concept of “avoid grains, soy, dairy and beans” is pretty old news. To most yogis, however, that is essentially brand new – and terrifying – information. Studio owner Becky Strahan sent us a note a few weeks prior to the workshop, asking us to approach this issue with sensitivity during our workshops. She wrote, “A few of my instructors (vegetarians) have talked to nutritionists who basically told them flat out that the vegetarian choice is wrong. They felt their choices weren’t honored in any way, and were pretty offended.”
Trying to present our material in a manner that was gentle yet effective was a challenge we took very seriously, and undertook carefully. For those of you faced with similar challenges – how to present your nutritional choices to friends and family in a sensitive manner – we’re happy to share our approach with you. While this particular subject matter is specific to vegetarians, our strategy could be employed with anyone who is reluctant to listen, skeptical of the information provided or defensive about their current dietary practices.
The first thing we asked of the group was simply WHY they became vegetarian. There are a number of reasons commonly cited, and knowing the person’s thought process is helpful when determining how to approach the subject of nutrition. In the course of our consulting, we’ve heard a number of common responses to the vegetarian question, including, “It feels healthier”, “It’s what everybody is doing” (common with teenagers), “I’m concerned for the environment and animal welfare”, and “I have moral/ethical issues with consuming animal products.”
The first two motives are the easiest to address. If the person is omitting animal products from their diet for generally vague “health” reasons, then our approach is simple. We carefully explain how grains, dairy and beans make them less healthy, and why adding dense protein sources back into their diets makes them more healthy. We’ve had great success with this approach – if these clients are willing to try it for themselves, the self-observed benefits of making these dietary changes quickly speak for themselves.
The third reason (environmental concerns) is a bit trickier to address. In this instance, we’ll spend some time figuring out if the person is open to incorporating some animal products back into their diet. If so, we then show them how to do so in a manner that is morally, ethically and socially responsible, being conscious of the environment, sustainability and animal welfare. We also give them some advice for making the transition back into a carnivorous diet a bit easier, both mentally and physically.
The last motive cited (a non-negotiable perspective) is the most complicated to address, and requires the most sensitivity. If a person’s reasons for becoming vegetarian stem from firmly rooted moral, ethical or religious beliefs, then as a friend, coach or counselor, you must honor and respect those choices. In this situation, all we can do is educate them on the health challenges they may face, and offer what we would consider their “best available” food choices and nutritional practices. As each individual has different self-imposed dietary restrictions (vegetarian, vegan, or raw, for example) and various degrees to which they will “flex” their preferences, our specific recommendations will be different for everyone. But from our perspective, all of our vegetarian dietary recommendations are simply designed to limit the damage, without expectations that this person will thrive to the same degree as their meat-eating counterparts. It’s a tough balance – we don’t want to preach, scold or scorn, but we also have a responsibility not to whitewash our material. (After all, they’re paying us for our opinions and guidance.) So we simply offer references, resources and best-practice options, and allow the vegetarian to make his or her own educated food choices.
After the workshops, Becky wrote, “I’d say you were honest about the effect of foods that vegetarians typically rely on, you made good suggestions for steps toward better choices, and were very careful to work within the constraints the individuals set for themselves. You presented useful, practical information in an a direct and truthful manner, but were still very respectful (of their choices).” We thank Becky for her feedback, and hope that sharing our thought processes here gives our readers a better framework on which to base some of their own conversations.
Additional Resources: Struggling to explain your nutritional choices, or looking to convince friends and family to change some of their dietary habits? You’ll find additional helpful tips in our “How to Win Friends and Influence Paleo” article.
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Melissa,
I really appreciate this article. I was vegan for awhile before I started crossfit and was very turned off by the attitude of some on the CF board (immediately slamming me for not eating meat and the like, I’m sure you’ve noticed it). It was exactly the approach you used here that changed my mind – once I realized that eating WELL (grassfed meat,organic produce, local when possible, etc etc) is both better for the environment and healthier for me, I made the switch with no problem. Also, bacon. That is all :)
Not sure if I can make it to CF 215 for the workshop, which is sad – the budget is super strict right now so I’ll have to content myself with researching and perusing your stuff. However wanted to let you know that I’m working on my own page right now (www.ironandspice.blogspot.com) and one of the things I’m doing is having my mom and sister try the 30 day Paleo challenge, then posting about it on my blog. I will, of course, give you all due credit and point anyone interested back here for info. I hope that’s okay. They are really excited to give it a try.
Best,
Meghan
Brilliant. I’m honestly very impressed by this approach, both the “we’re not backing down from what we know” and the “hey, here’s what you can try.”
I know from experience (as a trainer, and as an ex-spiritually-influenced vegetarian) how difficult it is to talk about this subject with folks who are incredibly invested in their point of view, even when it isn’t well-researched, well-thought-out, or well-done (i.e. sick people, desperately clinging to the routines making them sick). Finding some common ground first, so they know they’re still welcome, and then sharing what you know, is definitely the way to go.
I think this is really invaluable advice, and I’m going to remember this article as I consult my own members. Cheers!
Great writeup…..It’s hard sometimes to help vegetarians who are eating up their own body in the name of health. I just wrote an article along the exact same lines; you may like it-
http://www.elephantjournal.com/2010/02/mindful-meat-eating-mike-mallory/
We have all the information in the world it seems, but sometimes these little issues of implementation and communication are the hardest-
love the blog-
I’m a former rabid vegan true believer- my former spiritual path was harshly judgmental regarding meat eating and meat eaters. I used to teach yoga, meditation, etc. Granola, gurus, aloof, serene, militantly compassionate, etc. We loved you, but we knew you were wrong, not as enlightened as us, and you were ignorantly creating bad karma for yourself. Been there, done that.
Now I speak Paleo. I am trying not to turn Paleo into my new religion. But I ‘know’ it works better. Ha!
An excellent book about the vegetarian dilemma is The Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith- You can read 14 pages of it on her website. She is a former vegan who had some serious health issues arise that were diet related. She methodically deconstructs most of the standard vegetarian dogma. It helped me untangle some of the logical/ethical dilemmas that still had my former vegan mind tied in philosophical knots.
Beware- I think I bought her book after only reading 5-10 pages. It is well thought out and pretty well researched. http://www.lierrekeith.com/vegmyth.htm . I found out about it at Mark Sisson’s site, http://www.marksdailyapple.com/vegetarian-myth-review/
This is a very decent post- when we ‘know’ we are right, it is often really hard to respect the views of others, especially if we are ’sure’ that our knowledge will help them. And the fastest way to alienate those who really believe something strongly is to try to shove contrary beliefs down their throats without listening to them. Not wise.
And on the other hand, if we are taking a fair and balanced approach rather than being strongly for or against something, others will often not take us seriously because we appear as though we are not taking a stand. People want to believe in something, to belong to a tribe, and strong voices with strong opinions inspire faith an allegiance. There are definite $$$ & ego advantages to being a guru but that path comes with major pitfalls, too.
I have had to accept that I just have to open my mouth and say something imperfect (but as wise as I can manage), then deal with whatever happens next. And not be afraid to honestly change my opinion tomorrow if I learn something better.
Thanks for the post. Write on!
Wow, this sounds like a tough one. I’d would have loved to sit in and listen to the entire seminar. You guys rock!
The Vegetarian Myth, by Lierre Keith, is a great read and contains plenty of information for rebutting the vegetarian arguments, especially the health, environment, and moral issues.
http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Myth-Food-Justice-Sustainability/dp/1604860804/ref=sr_1_1
Meghan and Veronica,
If you’re not able to physically make it to one of our Workshops-on-the-Road, hang tight for a second. We’ve got some really awesome opportunities for folks just like you in the works, and should have some exciting announcements about that really soon… We’re addressing those travel limitations that lots of folks have as best we can. Stay tuned!
Adam,
Glad we could give you some ideas on how to connect with people in a congenial-but-still-opinionated manner. I spent 20 years or so as a vegetarian, but I never tried to convince my omnivorous friends to stop eating animals. I’m awfully thankful that we still get to make some choices for ourselves – like what we get to eat. When you look around the world, we’re very fortunate to have that luxury. Thanks for stopping by.
Cliff and George,
While we appreciate the sharing of intelligent references like Lierre Keith’s book, it should be made clear that we are not attempting to win converts to the Carnivorous Religion of Paleolithicism. In fact, we try to avoid using labels like “Paleo” altogether because people tend to get all tangled up in whether agave nectar or 100% cocoa or heavy cream is considered “Paleo” and miss the point that food should make you healthy. We don’t eat meat because Mark Sisson says Grok would have, we eat it because it’s a dense protein source that allows us to adequately recover from the rough-and-tough lives we live (including our high-intensity, varied exercise program that could be considered “CrossFit”, or not. I mean, do we have to do Fight Gone Bad and Filthy Fifty and Angie monthly to be “CrossFit”? I digress…). So in the same vein as not preaching the Paleo Gospel, we’re not out to “rebut” the “arguments” for vegetarianism. We simply strive to present valuable information to people about how to live happier, healthier (and less confrontational!) lives, and let them decide for themselves what is the best path for them. Whether my vegetarian friends eat meat or not has no bearing on how healthy I am, and at the end of the day, I can only control what goes in my own mouth. Thanks for posting the resources. Eat Good Food, exercise hard and often, and be good to your neighbors.
Dallas
Cliff, I’ve heard of lots of vegetarians, and most commonly vegans, whose doctors have advised them to start eating meat or else suffer a whole host of health problems. I suspect that there are many more who would just never admit it. I’ve never heard of a meat eater whose doctor advised them to stop eating meat in the interest of their health.
Dallas, I’ve never tried to win any converts. All I try to do is educate why eating meat is a good and natural thing, especially when you are smart about your meat sources. For example, as long as it is deer season, I eat exclusively venison for red meat. That doe lived a long and happy life, and rather than dying a slow death of starvation in the snows this winter, she met a quick and easy end at the pointy end of my friend’s rifle. I think that’s more humane than the chemical waste dump that we turn our world into with our grain production.
The best way to lead by example is when the improvements in your lifestyle are so noticeable that when a skeptic starts pushing back, a friend or colleague overhearing steps in, saying, “Oh, no, you didn’t know Emily a year ago. She knows what’s she’s talking about.”
I have found that the biggest hurdles to overcome with anyone, including vegetarians, are the fears of difficulty and boredom. I can whip up an excellent paleo meal in less time than it would take me to drive to McD’s and back. Sure, sometimes I take more time, but I’ll cook for an army and freeze it, so it makes for less time per meal spent cooking. The boredom issue is a tough one. I think that just takes experience to overcome. I think I would die if I had to eat chicken and broccoli for the rest of my life. I have been cooking for nearly 20 years. I have a huge recipe index in my brain and can wing it pretty easily.
But back to vegetarians, it is rare to find one who is actually truly morally convicted and educated about their convictions. Most are hanging onto the health kick bandwagon or the popularity train.
Hi Guys
I am a vegetarian CF-er. My entire family is vegetarian and have been for generations. It is our way of life and is so for a lot of Indians. Before learning about paleo, I was eating rice, bread, oatmeal, you name it. Then tried the zone. Then I did my version of paleo – which I refer to as Vegetarian Paleo – eating vegetarian the paleo way. The results of switching to vegetarian paleo are still AMAZING! I’ve lost fat, gained strength. My workouts continue to get better. I get my protein from greek yogurt I make at home, from some soy, milk, cheese. I eat a lot of fat, vegetables and some berries. I eat no grains or sugar. While I may not see the same strength gains as someone who’s truly paleo, eating meat, that is just fine with me – omitting grains and sugar STILL works.
I guess what I’m trying to say is- even if you are a vegetarian, you can still eat paleo by omitting the grains and sugar and still get most of the benefits of paleo.
Just wanted to share my experience on this topic. Keep up the awesome work you guys bring to this community and am looking forward to the new and exciting announcements.
@Emily: Thanks for sharing your perspective. You’ve made some really smart points. I know a few people who have commented on the “boredom” factor too, but with a little initiative, you never have to hit that “chicken and broccoli again?” point. Learning how to make this a sustainable, satisfying way of life just takes some time, effort and practice – like anything else worth pursuing.
Feel free to drop your favorite veggies recipes on us – we’d love to share them with the community! Thanks for posting.
@Anu: I was hoping to see you here – our recent emails were part of the motivation for this post. Excellent point you offer – you can always make better choices and while still honoring your self-imposed dietary restrictions. I’m glad you discovered that on your own, and thanks for sharing your experience with us.
Thank you for the article.
I’ll third or fourth reading “The Vegetarian Myth”
I never understood or could consider the vegetarian perspective until I read this book. Just couldn’t understand why anyone would undertake vegetarianism other than for religious reasons. After reading this book I understand more clearly the numerous lines of thinking that vegetarians have and sympathize with some of them.
“I’ve heard of lots of vegetarians, and most commonly vegans, whose doctors have advised them to start eating meat or else suffer a whole host of health problems. I suspect that there are many more who would just never admit it. I’ve never heard of a meat eater whose doctor advised them to stop eating meat in the interest of their health.”
Try all the doctors that recommend cutting out meat, dairy & eggs for heart health. My own father was steered in that direction after his heart attack. Not that I’m saying doctors necessarily know what they’re talking about when it comes to nutrition, especially not vegetarian nutrition. I think we’ve all heard about how little training your average GP has in that field. When you look at it like that, perhaps it doesn’t really matter that you’ve heard that doctors advise vegetarian patients to start scarfing down ribs?
I hope vegetarians and vegans who HAVE researched their diet don’t back down from what they know: veg*nism and Crossfit can fit together very well, and as Anu mentions above, adopting a better diet is going to improve your health and athletic performance without necessarily compromising your religious, ethical, or environmental beliefs.
And yes, Emily M., nutritionally educated veg*ns do exist, we’re just not necessarily the ones bringing it up in conversation because we’re 18 and recently decided to subsist on a diet of spaghetti from the can and white rice because our favourite band did an ad for PETA. Maybe get out and meet a few more before you start throwing out statisics you pulled from your nether regions?
You may also want to take into account that the western world is set up for meat eaters, not veg*ns; we have to work a lot harder than you to get proper dietary information and advice. It’s only natural that our process of discovery might take longer. Luckily, many new vegetarians will at least try to lay their hands on information about their new diet, unlike people raised omnivorous who may never need to seek it out.
“So in the same vein as not preaching the Paleo Gospel, we’re not out to “rebut” the “arguments” for vegetarianism. We simply strive to present valuable information to people about how to live happier, healthier (and less confrontational!) lives, and let them decide for themselves what is the best path for them.”
Dallas and Melissa – I appreciate your attitude toward veg*n Crossfitters interested in nutrition: understanding and accepting of other diets while still trying to keep everyone as healthy as possible.
This article (and many of the posts) reminds me of the Alcoholics Anonymous chapter “We Agnostics,” where they attempt to reinforce the “god as we understood HIM” part of AA. By the time you finish the chapter though (and read other writings about the subject in AA literature) you’ll see behind the curtain. The moral of the story seems to end up “sooner of later you’ll believe in god too.” I happen to know that there are many sober folk in recovery who continue to be agnostic and are able to stay sober just fine and there are plenty of Crossfitters who continue to thrive without killing animals to do it.
My husband’s in med-school. It’s hilarious to hear people talk about the “unhealthiness” of a vegetarian diet when heart disease is America’s number one killer and food from animals is the number one contributor to arterial plaque.
I just wish somebody would be honest and say “I eat it because I like the taste of it” and leave all that other nonsense to the meat-heads who believe everything their high school football coach told them.