Thursday, 8 July 2009
It's not you. It's us.
Why We Don’t Do Dairy
A. Dairy provokes an inflammatory response in the gut, which can adversely effect how you digest and absorb not just dairy products, but all your food. Furthermore, this chronic inflammation can cause “microperforation” (tiny holes) of the intestinal lining, allowing dairy proteins and other foreign substances to cross into the bloodstream (where they do not belong). This causes an immune response as the body attacks these foreign proteins, and is linked to autoimmune conditions such as asthma, lupus, allergies, arthritis, psoriasis and acne.
As an aside, celiacs (those with a gluten intolerance) tend to cross-react with dairy, which means consuming dairy can exacerbate their celiac disease. This is primarily because of the similarity in structure between gliadin, a protein constituent of gluten, and casein (milk protein). It has been shown that 1/3 to 1/2 of celiacs also have specific milk protein intolerances.
It is important to note that the dairy-induced inflammatory response is a separate issue from lactose intolerance (which is simply the inability to properly break down the milk sugar). In general, dairy products are bad news for us, regardless of whether we can digest lactose or not. You may not even realize you have an issue with dairy until you give it up for a period, and then reintroduce it. Everyone responds differently, but most of the time the reintroduction of dairy after four or more weeks of being completely dairy-free is not a pleasant experience. Cheese (a concentrated milk protein) is one of the most common food intolerances.
B. Dairy (particularly milk) spikes insulin levels. It is the combination of proteins and sugars (lactose) in dairy that is responsible for this response, and all varieties – skim milk, 1%, 2% and whole milk – are virtually identical in how they affect insulin. When you drink a glass of milk your blood glucose levels go up a little, but insulin increases three or four times what you would expect. That really doesn’t make sense, because you don’t need that much insulin to deal with the glucose in the system.
When too much insulin is present in the system, the body has trouble releasing the energy already stored in fat cells, and thus asks (in the form of hunger pangs) for more food to burn for instant energy. If this dietary pattern continues, fat stores grow while energy levels need continuous “topping-up” with more food. In summary, insulin spikes should be avoided, especially if you’re trying to manage your body composition or perform optimally. (And, of course, we want that.)
C. Dairy (specifically, cheeses), like grains and processed foods, have an acidifying effect on the body. A net acid-producing diet promotes bone de-mineralization (i.e. osteopenia and osteoporosis), and also contributes to the following maladies and illnesses: kidney stones, age-related muscle wasting, hypertension, stroke and asthma. By replacing cheeses, cereal grains, and processed foods with plenty of green vegetables and fruits, the body comes back into acid/base balance (and a more positive calcium balance). Recent research out of Tufts University has shown that a more alkaline diet preserves muscle mass. We like muscle mass.
Questions? Concerns? Want more information? You don’t have to be a 603′er to ask. Post thoughts to comments.
Dallas-
Ok wait. Alkaline diet calls for alot of things the Paleo Diet doesnt, namely bananas (high glycemimc index), squash and cottage cheese to name a few. Cottage cheese, just before that you said stay away from dairy. That is a dairy product right? or am I missing something…..
Oh and if I go with an alkaline diet I am also eating nightshades, right? And PASTA!! Melissa said stay the F away from these the other day. Im all good with this, really, and see why now some say cottage cheese and other things are ok while doing Paleo and others do not. Whatever, to each is own, you say tomato I say tamato and all that crap….
Heres where I am fuzzy, kind of. As a newcomer to Paleo I am constantly looking for resources to help me be a better caveman and quite frankly alot of alkalizing foods are some of the things I am trying to avoid based off what I read from Cordain, Wolf and well, Melissa’s Blog.
If I am missing the point and confusing Alkalines and Alkaloids just post BOOB when you get the chance on here and I will find a cave somewhere in the White Mtns and feel shame.
Thanks,
Jeff
Jeff,
I’m going to jump in to ask you to clarify before Dallas weighs in. Where, exactly, are you reading that an “alkaline diet” should include things like cottage cheese and pasta? Those are both clearly acid-producing foods. Cordain says nothing more than, “By replacing hard cheeses, cereal grains, and processed foods with plenty of green vegetables and fruits, the body comes back into acid/base balance. The Paleo Diet recommends an appropriate balance of acidic and basic (alkaline) foods (i.e., lean meats, fish and seafood, fruits, and vegetables).”
If you’re reading something different elsewhere, post the link.
Also… bananas and squash are perfectly Paleo! They may contain more naturally occurring sugars than other fruits and vegetables, but they are certainly A-OK to eat on even the strictest Paleo diet!
Melissa
I have substituted organic almond milk – any thoughts?
I read somewhere that the body cannot handle dairy after the age of 7, and a good substitute is goat’s milk/cheese/yogurt/etc. Any thoughts on that?
Melissa-
I seem to have read so much stuff in the last month that it is hard to keep track of.
Tracking on the pasta being acid forming so bad example but is a recommended food with in the Alkaline diet, if im not mistaken.
The site I found the other day that made me say what(?) to Dallas’ post was this:
http://www.thewolfeclinic.com/acidalkfoods.html
I wholeheartedly agree with what Dallas said in his post it just seemed that the contrary to some of the things I have seen lately. I am beginning to realize that there are alot of “experts” out there.
I think to some degree I am suffering from info overload and like I said before I may have this confused.
In any event I am down with no dairy as I have never felt better than I have in the last 3 weeks.
Jeff
Ahh even dairy products have also limitation too, too much insulin can cause troubles in releasing energy in the body, this is interesting…..
I have also a blog about dairy products in Knowing Miner It’s also interesting…
I admit that I am a bit behind in the research for my diet as I have been doing for the workout side. Because of that, I haven’t completely understood the concept of taking things out of the diet and then reintroducing them. After reading this post, I am DEFINITELY taking dairy out of my diet. Coming from the Dairy State, this is more of a mental block than anything else. I know it is going to help take my workouts and overall fitness to the next level.
Hey 603,
The dairy part of the Paleo equation is something I’ve always thought about. I agree that milk (whole all the way to skim) should be avoided as it’s insulin response is to be avoided. I think the same goes for yogurt (greek and non-greek alike) and cottage cheese. I still keep heavy whipping cream in my coffee as I don’t think that has the ability to raise insulin since it’s nothing but fat. I use the same rationale for butter and ghee. Cheese I use sparingly, if it’s in a dish I’m not going to turn it away but I don’t snack on mozzarella sticks either. Now when we get to the gut issues, I want to make sure I’m seeing this clearly. After researching and watching Dr. Cordain’s presentation on The Paleo Diet and MS, I understand that dairy cannot seep through the gut without another adgoven (sp?) to latch on to. It (casein protein) usually tags along with the usual suspects wheat (WGA), tomato, or legume lectins. Therefore while I’m sure Paleo man wasn’t about to milk Sally the Cow, looking at this from a biological standpoint where health is the determinant, would you say that things like heavy cream/butter/ghee are to be enjoyed while milk/cheese/yogurt/kefir are your own choice as long as you are already off of wheat/tomatoes/legumes? After watching the video and reading the good work of Dr. Harris at http://www.paleonu.com/ it all seemed to click. Good work guys, hopefully someday I’ll make it up to Tilton.
-Mark
Jeff, don’t run off to the Whites just yet (though there ARE some gorgeoous places there!)… You’re right – there ARE a lot of (self-proclaimed) “experts” out there. And… I’m not one of them. I’ve just learned by reading the work of people much smarter than me. And, you’re right, it can be very confusing when you read what appears to be contradictory information. That being said, maybe I can simplify things a little for you. I think some of your confusion lies is in the difference between alkalinizing foods and an alkalinizing diet . Ultimately, a Paleo diet that is rich in vegetables and fruit (which have an alkalinizing effect on the body) will be a more “alkaline” diet than diets containing a greater amount of acidifying foods like grains, dairy, and large volumes of meat/fish. The concept is not to avoid all foods that are acidifying, but to strike a balance between acidifying and alkalinizing foods so that the net result is slightly alkaline. Make sense? Hope so. What it boils down to is that “Paleo” is about food choices, and an “Alkaline Diet” is more focused on a specific measure of acid/base balance in the body (but potentially including foods like cottage cheese that are not recommended by Paleo folks). My recommendation, then, is to stick with good, healthy food choices as recommended by the actual Paleo diet, and just understand that when you make intelligent food choices, the issue of having an overall acidifying diet is self-correcting, because the veggetables and fruit in your Paleo diet will keep you in a pretty good (alkaline) place. Does that make sense?
Brooks, good call on the almond milk – sort of. It’s a pretty good substitute for milk if you absolutely need something milk-like, but remember, it’s highly processed (and, as a rule, we strive to eat more whole, unprocessed stuff), and it’s likely sweetened (i.e. sugar…). Unsweetened almond milk is available, but that takes all the fun out of it for me
I’ve also read that goat’s milk can be a more tolerable alternative to cow’s milk, but I think that’s mostly in the context of discussing lactose intolerance. Ultimately, goat’s milk is still the mammary secretions of some other mammal. Huh.
Jay, I encourage you to do some reading of your own (start with Loren Cordain’s Paleo stuff, and hit Robb Wolf’s stuff, too), but if you start to get overwhelmed, just back down to the simple concepts of eating more fresh vegetables, cutting out anything processed, and getting some good sources of protein, carbohydrate, and fat throughout the day. It can be as simple or complex as you’re willing to make it, and trust me, more complex isn’t better. Glad you’re on board with us.
Mark, thanks for the great question. You’re right about the heavy cream, butter, and ghee – since it’s all fat, there are none of the milk protein intolerance, lactose intolerance, or insulin-spiking issues. So yes, you get my green light on those foods (with some sort of moderation, of course). However, I still would encourage you to avoid milk/cheese/yogurt/kefir for those other (significant) reasons of MPI, LI, and the profound effect on insulin levels (all of which are independent of casein and other milk proteins crossing through the gut via microperforations). Keep in mind that there are a bunch of different reasons for avoiding the carb and protein consituents of dairy, and not all of them are related to casein “leaking” out from the gut. Hope this makes sense for you. And as far as cheese is concerned, here’s what I do: if a recipe calls for cheese as a primary source of flavor, and you think it’s worth eating despite what you know about the protein constituents of milk, then at least use intensely-flavored cheeses in small quanities to minimize the volume you’re consuming. I’m thinking feta, extra-sharp cheddar, etc. It’s a small but reasonable compromise in my opinion. I’d still consider it as a “cheat” for myself, though. Few and far between, ideally. Hope you can schedule a visit sometime. Drop us an email to set something up. Cheers,
Dallas
I found this nugget the other day that helped clarify the glycemic index issue:
From Dr. Loren Cordain:
“Carbohydrates that cause us to gain weight are typically carbohydrates with a high glycemic load. Although most of you have probably heard of the glycemic index (the ability of a food to acutely raise the blood sugar), many are unfamiliar with the glycemic load, which is simply the glycemic index of a food multiplied by the carbohydrate content in a given amount of the food. The glycemic load of a food is more closely related to the net insulin response over a 24-hr period than is the simple glycemic index. Consequently, it is the glycemic load that may predispose us to obesity and chronic disease.
Although watermelon has a high glycemic index (72) similar to white bread (70), it has a glycemic load (per 100 grams of watermelon) that is only 5.2 compared to a glycemic load in white bread of 34.7. The International Table of Glycemic Indices lists the glycemic index of 11 fruits. The glycemic loads (per 100 grams of food) of these 11 fruits are as follows: bananas 12.1, pineapple 8.2, grapes 7.7, kiwi fruit 7.4, apple 6.0, pear 5.4, watermelon 5.2, orange 5.1, cherries 3.7, peach 3.1, grapefruit 1.9. Consequently one would have to eat 6.7 times as much watermelon as white bread to achieve an equivalent glycemic load. Let’s say you ate 4 slices of white bread (or 100 grams, ~ 1/4 lb). In order to get an equivalent glycemic load, you would have to eat almost 1.5 lbs of watermelon or 4 lbs of grapefruit.
One of the body’s mechanisms used to determine when to stop eating is stomach volume or fullness. Most people would stop eating watermelon after about 3.0 lbs (435 kcal) or say even 6.0 lbs (870 kcal) because their stomach volumes simply could not physically take much more food. Hence, under normal eating conditions, it is difficult or impossible for most people to overeat on fruits alone.”
Dallas, very interesting to see a post that goes beyond the typical “Dairy = Lactose Intolerance” argument.
Would you mind posting some links/sources about the information in your post?
Thanks,
Mehdi
I hate you Byers.
For years we’ve been together, milk and I. Through thick and thin, in all colors, fat percentages, and flavors. Being a little guy with a negative body fat percentage Mark Rippitoe and his “gallon of milk a day” poured fuel on the passionate flames of our lactate union. 2 weeks ago, if you told me I could only have one food for the rest of my life, I would have said whole milk without blinking.
Now lady Byers and her facts are attempting to disrupt what I believed to be a harmonious relationship between myself and milk. I read your 30 day paleo challenge and immediately thought, sounds good, except the milk bit. That’s just crazy talk. They must not have proper cows in New Hampshire. It must have been a typo. She must have meant double the dairy, not cut it out completely. My senses bitch slapped your logic Byers and I moved on with life, milk in hand.
But you’re a persistent one, aren’t you. And you’ve clearly done way more research on the subject than I ever will. Blind faith and old habits can stand up to a lot, but I wouldn’t be a proper trainer if I gaffed off your informed opinion and good intentions. I’m saying I’ll try it Byers. One month, no dairy, just paleo. I’ll tell my one true love that we should see other people.
I’ll do it but I’m going to keep a skeptical chip on my shoulder. A chip named Byers.
(In all seriousness, keep up the charge. Right or wrong? Time will tell, but you’re asking questions and trying alternatives and it takes guts to share that with others.)
Shit,
Didn’t notice that Dallas posted this. I’ll submit the paperwork to have that chip on my shoulder renamed Dallas. Although I live above the Mason Dixon so there’s bound to be some confusion.
All the best, minus milk
JP
Random note, I just got off doing LeanGains of which I was consuming a lot of milk and cottage cheese. I don’t know if I can completely blame those two but since going to low carb Paleo (Robb Wolf CLC stuff) on Tuesday, yeah just two days ago, my pants are definitely looser and I feel worlds better. Anecdotal evidence: Yes, Me with a Smile: Yes, and I’m not usually a cheery person. Also, I’m inspired by the games and a hill climb will be part of my WOD tonight, can’t wait!
4 rounds for time of:
Hill Climb to Parking Lot (it’s behind an excavating site so it’s pretty much sand and rocks, guessing around 100 ft high)
135# Thruster, 10 reps
10 Push-Ups
25 Squats
Descend Hill
JP, I am in this with you. Email me if you need a shoulder to cry on. I loves me some whole milk. Whatever doesn’t kill us makes us stronger, right?
Which articles/books did you read?
Dallas-
Got it. Perfect sense. Thank you!!!
Danni-
This is where I got started….
http://www.earth360.com/diet_paleodiet_balzer.html
From there start digging around. What I found very useful were specific good/bad food lists. Those made it easier when it came time to shop. Even if I was hungry I could grab the list and see wether or not something I was thinking of eating was good or bad.
Hope that helps. But sure not to do to much research as I did. You will find some contradictary info out there so try and keep it as simple as possible and worst case buy Dr Cordains book The Paleo Diet.
http://www.thepaleodiet.com/
You can sign up for a Free newsletter there as well which typically has some good info in it.
Jeff
Danni-
Was looking for this earlier, was and still is very useful to me.
http://altmed.creighton.edu/Paleodiet/Foodlist.html
Jeff
Dallas,
Do you have more information about the link between lupus and dairy? I’ve done some searches but a lot of the results I’ve found have also said to cut out red meat and game meat as well.
Thanks!
Carla
Mehdi and Danni,
I’ve got a running (meaning poorly organized) list of dietary references, many of which deal with dairy-related concerns. I’d be more than happy to email the list to anyone who’s interested. Disclaimer: it’s long, not categorized, and you’ll have to sort through a bunch of science-y stuff, but I’m still glad to share it. Email me at dallas.hartwig@gmail.com and I’ll send it over. Happy learning!
Dallas
Carla, I don’t have any specific published journal articles addressing lupus, but the consensus among immunologists seems to be that dairy and lupus are not a good combo. Do you have a personal interest in that topic? My sister was diagnosed with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis (an autoimmune cousin of lupus) about 15 years ago, and she’s done very well on a dairy-free diet. I guess I’ll say to you what I say to almost everyone who asks: “Try it for 30 days.” You stand to gain a lot, and have little (if anything) to lose. Best of luck,
Dallas
Our family has been completely dairy-free for the last ten years, and my children never get the upper respiratory and ear infections all of their dairy-consuming friends seem to get all the time. The almost daily intestinal distress that plagued our youngest son has disappeared completely since we removed dairy from his diet. I can’t say enough how the decision to remove dairy from all of our diets has improved our lives. We relied on soy products for years, and my kids never felt deprived, but I recently discovered a whole new world of delicious ice cream, yogurt, and milk all made from coconut by Turtle Mountain. All of these products are delicious and have the added healthy benefits of coconut oil. I read that they are even coming out with a coconut milk kefir, and I am really looking forward to trying it too.
Dallas,
One of my really good friends has lupus and she keeps it under control by managing her stress levels and eating healthy. However, she eats a lot of dairy!! I think she is up for trying anything for a bit to see how it goes. She has already said that she is going to give it a shot for 30 days. I did find some references saying to stay away from dairy on the internet but didn’t find any specific studies on dairy and lupus.
Thanks for taking the time to respond! I will keep you all posted on my friends results.
Carla
But what about my whey protein powder. It’s always helped to fill in the blanks of my sloppy diet. And it’s so nice to wake up in the morning drink my whey and walk out to the garage ten minutes later to do my wod. Damn it. What do i do?
Dubious. I’ve lived off of a whey/casein blend protein shake for years. Years. Not a couple a week. More like a minimum of 2 a day. The manufacturer is Biotest. The product was formerly called “low carb Grow!” and is now called, “low carb Metabolic Drive”. To suggest that eating alkaline foods leads to chronic acidosis ignores the ability to balance out the diet with other foods. I’m all for having your nutrition dialed in, but considering extreme examples of how the human body is capable of enduring what could be considered downright abuse should put this no cheese/milk/yogurt/fun into perspective. Live a little people. I’m just not seeing milk and milk products as the Great Satan. I liken these types of discussions to the the cycling weenies who obsess about how many grams their pedals weigh.
Ryan, I hear you on using convenient shakes/powders to “fill in the blanks”, but I noticed that you were also candid enough to use the word “sloppy.” I agree, it would be “nice” if everything that was convenient and tasty was also healthy and cheap, but that’s not usually how life works. If you’re open to tweaking your habits, I’ve found that a few scrambled (or poached, or hard-boiled) egg whites are a convenient, easily-digestible pre-workout protein source. (When paired with a little fresh fruit, that allows me a early morning workout without getting too smoked.) I’d make the case, however, that your POST-workout meal is far more important, and I know some (smart) people that even purposely do NOT eat before their AM workout to maximize the uptake of post-workout nutrients. Experiment for yourself. Maybe you end up back where you started, but at least you’ve learned about your body and yourself.
Mike, to clarify: I was not saying that eating alkalinizing foods (or acidifying foods, for that matter) would definitively lead to chronic acidosis, but it is worth making the point that while you certainly could – and should – “balance out” the acidifying effects of your whey/casein blend with a huge volume of veggies and fruit, it’s hard. It’s hard because while most dairy products (and meat, and eggs, and nuts – all good things) are strongly acidifying, most vegetables and fruit are only weakly alkalinizing (when consuming comparable weights), so the sheer volume of vegetables you should be consuming is… large. Which is why we start with “eat more fresh, perishable food – especially vegetables. ” But… the high net renal acid load of dairy products is just one part of the picture. All in all, the dairy discussion is complex and somewhat individual. And if you’ve got something that’s working extremely well for you, I’m certainly not begging you to change that. Best of luck, and thanks for weighing in.
Dallas
What is the problem with tomatoes? This is about the third time I’ve seen this. I think I remember seeing someone on the Zone Chronicals talking about getting some dish with no tomatoes. Is it related to acid, or glycemic index, or something else?
So should babies get grass-fed beef smoothies over breast milk?
In all seriousness, is there a physiological change that occurs from when we’re babies to adults that causes milk and dairy to to have an inflammatory response? Is milk bad for babies too?
Hey Marshall,
I’ll try and jump in here until Dallas can put together a more put together answer. The deal with tomatoes is that they seem to have the same issues of wheat and legumes when we’re talking about auto-immune disorders. In trying to re-hash Dr. Cordain’s presentation on MS, basically the lectins in tomatoes have the same ability to sneak through the gut lining and cause problems. Essentially these proteins (wheat, legumes, tomato) attach themselves to good proteins (think myelin sheath for example) and get through the gut lining with the good protein. Think sneaking some candy into a movie theater, bad analogy but we’ll go with it. You are able to get into the theater because you have a ticket but the box of Junior Mints that you bought at CVS for $1.99 doesn’t. The theater only allows candy that you buy from them. So anyways to wrap this analogy up, think of the staff at the theater as the gut lining, they only let what they approve into see the movie or through the gut lining and into your blood. The candy (bad protein – wheat, tomato, legume, casein in some circumstances) gets sneaked through under the cloak of your ticket (good protein – myelin sheath). Now you have a good protein and a bad protein in your blood, or CVS candy while you watch the movie. The movie staff comes in to check on it’s patrons to make sure everyone is having a good time and they discover your candy (bad protein) and throw you out of the theater with your ticket (good protein) CVS candy (again bad protein). In the body, instead of you excreting the good and bad proteins, the body just carpet bombs to kill both proteins. So now you’re outside the theater with your candy and your ticket and you don’t know if Megatron ends up defeating Optimus Prime. Stick with me, the analogy is almost done. This theater is smart and it identifies you on it’s security camera as an outside candy sneaker and no longer want’s your business. So the next time you try to buy a ticket to a movie, they say get out, we don’t want your business. The same thing happens in your body. As your body continues to carpet bomb the good and bad proteins once in the blood, they begin to build antibodies to both the good and bad proteins. From here, your body will begin to attack both the good and bad protein regardless of whether they come together or alone. As this happens over and over again, your body is no longer able to use the good proteins because they’ve been destroyed by the anti-bodies which in the case of myelin sheath proteins, you now have MS. Along with this you get subtle inflammation among other things. So while tomatoes won’t spike your insulin, they could eventually give you subtle inflammation and increase your chances of developing an auto-immune disorder (take your pick of MS, arthritis, Lupus, Graves, and the list goes on). On a related note, the tomato is part of the nightshade family of veggies along with hot peppers, white potatoes, and eggplant to name a few. If one suffers from constant inflammation, think arthritis, it is advised that they avoid nightshades. Your example from the Zone Chronicles is Eva Claire from Crossfit Boston. I was lucky enough to attend a nutrition seminar put on by her and when she experimented with taking nightshades out of her diet for three weeks, she noticed that her joints no longer popped when she squatted and did all the other amazing olympic movements that she does. That is why you see her picking the tomatoes out of her cobb salad. Sorry for the long response, hopefully it helps. I myself avoid tomatoes now. Dallas/Melissa, please let me know if I fubbed something big. Also, below is the link to the YouTube of Dr. Cordain’s presentation. It’s a 7 part series at a little over an hour in total but WELL worth the time. It’s puts a whole new perspective on “Eating Right”. Have a good day, this stuff is lots of fun once you get into it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhkmDHLCUEs&feature=related
-Mark
Wow, thanks for the explaination. That makes me want to go see a movie. Maybe Hurt Locker or Bruno. Also, is there a list of the top inflammation foods to avoid? I just got my MRI back and I have a herniated disk from not maintaining the curve in my lower back in the bottom of heavy back squats. The doctor has me on NSAIDs, yeah yeah I know, tissue repair. I’d like to see what i can do nutritionally to reduce inflammation. I ordered some Kirkland Fish Oil and I have been staying pretty paleo. I’d really like to focus more on reducing inflammation with insulin control a close second. The Byers and Friends blogs are really starting to become a top notch nutrition reference. Right up there with Marks Daily Apple and Robb Wolf. So good.
Hey Marshall, from what I understand and can assimilate here are the main inflammatory foods to avoid for either their anti-nutrient or insulin spiking properties:
1. Wheat including oats, barley, and rye to name a few. Basically if you need a machine or grinding stone to process it, you probably want to stay away from it.
2. Legumes including beans and peanuts. The interesting thing here is that beans might be safe if they’re prepared properly, i.e. soaking. According to stuff I learned from Stephen over at Whole Health Source, soaking beans overnight in water or with some baking soda will allow the bean to break down it’s own phytic acid so that you can digest it without problems. Does that mean that it won’t leak through your gut, I would guess yes as if you’re able to assimilate a nutrient then it shouldn’t cause a problem.
3. Nightshades (tomatoes,sweet and hot peppers, eggplant, potatoes)
4. Dairy (not butter, ghee, heavy cream – these are basically just fat) – Not only does dairy spike insulin without spiking glucose, the casein protein within dairy can sneak through the gut when it is paired with either wheat, tomato or legumes.
5. Sugar/HFCS – there’s just nothing good about this stuff when taken in high quantities, some here and there is probably ok but a 20 oz Coke, very bad idea
So in general, eat a diet of meat and vegetables, nuts and seeds, some fruit, little starch, no sugar. I think I’ve heard that somewhere before. In regards to fish oil, good stuff there. I’m currently taking high doses of the stuff to help reverse my own insulin insensitivity, still have my midsection tire (not a mac truck one anymore but it’s still there). I’m dosing at 0.08427 g per pound of bodyweight because that’s what Robb Wolf is taking right now and it’s easy to just do what he does because he’s much smarter than I. (from RobbWolf.com: I started to lean out again, especially when I upped my fish oil to about 15g/day (Kirkland brand)…I’m about 178lbs but below 10% BF at this point.) So this means that I’m pouring 4 tbsp of Cod Liver Oil into a glass of water every night. Seems like a lot but I feel great so I can’t complain. As an aside, I can relate with the back issues. I herniated my own L 4-5 disc back in high school. The doc opted not to do surgery because of my age. I still get nervous with heavy back squats and generally avoid them. I’d rather do lighter squats A2A with a slight pause at the bottom, just as effective in my opinion.
Lastly, some good blogs to follow on top of Mark’s Daily Apple and Robb Wolf.
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/
http://www.paleonu.com/
Marshall, I’m actually working on a simple “here’s what to do when stuff won’t stop hurting” list, but I’ll give you my key points for now:
1. Eat more vegetables. No, not because kale will cure your tendonitis… or will it? More veggies = a more alkaline effect on your body = less chronic disease and inflammation. Also, a large volume of fresh vegetables tends to “crowd out” some poorer quality food choices like grains and processed junk.
2. Drink more water. No, not juice. No, not iced tea. No, not Crystal Light. Water.
3. Cut out the grains. Entirely. Reintroduce some if you feel that you absolutely need to after 30 days, and see how you feel.
4. Cut out the dairy. See #4.
5. Start taking a fish oil supplement, at a dose of 0.75-1.0g per 10 pounds of body weight. Check the label to make sure there are no “filler” oils or extra gelatin. Since there are different “strengths” of fish oil, you can do a little math and aim for that 0.75-1.0g dose of the total of EPA + DHA. It’s a range, not a precise dosage.
6. Experiment with removing nightshades from your diet. It’s not the highest priority change to make, but if you’ve done the previous things with absolute dedication and feel like you need more fine-tuning, try it. Nightshades include white potatoes (not sweet potatoes), tomatoes, tobacco, sweet and hot peppers (including cayenne and paprika), and eggplant.
7. I’ve not experimented with it myself, but I’ve read that 1/2 to 1 ounce per day of apple cider vinegar and/or fresh lemon juice can help to moderate an acidic environment in your body, but this is out of my realm of experience.
In response to your comment about “insulin control” and inflammation, it is my understanding that controlling inflammation in the body helps to control insulin levels, but… it’s unclear whether controlling insulin levels directly impacts your inflammatory state. Cart or the horse… Either way, though, you want both less inflammation and less spikes in insulin levels. So, eat strict Paleo for a while, add some fish oil, maybe pull out nightshades, and see what happens. Hope this helps.
Dallas
And… Mark, thanks for your thorough responses. Good stuff.
Peppers huh? I’ve been eating green, red, orange, and yellow bell peppers and counting that as paleo/good. Not to mention Poblano, Jalapeno, and Serrano chiles here and there? What makes hot peppers bad? Is it something about the capsaicin levels in the hot peppers? Or is it that all peppers are to be used sparingly?
http://www.fitnessspotlight.com/2008/01/06/nightshades/
Actually, I found an interesting Nightshades article here. I’ll give it a shot.
Good find Marshall, Fitness Spotlight is a great resource. They have some great stuff on IF, not that we’re going in that direction but it’s just good to understand why you don’t have to eat every three hours. When it comes to nightshades, I think it’s more of an individual thing. Wheat, I don’t think anyone should eat it. Nightshades here and there, might not be too bad. As always, use the ole “give it a shot” approach. Take them out for 30 days and then go get yourself some spicy nachos and see how you do. Have a good weekend.
So no one has any insights on dairy induced inflammation in young babies that only drink milk?
Hey Brett,
Just looking at babies where their only source of nutrition is breast milk, then I would say that there is no basis for excess inflammation. As Dr. Cordain has only seen dairy be a problem when paired with other adjuvents (I think that’s the word but just insert wheat, tomato, or legume) in regards to gut issues, so we’re good there. Then in regards to the high levels of insulin that milk gives, I think a baby would put that to good use as they grow at an much faster rate compared to children who are post weaning (about 3 to 4 years old in some cultures), so insulin spikes in babies and insulin spikes in non-babies are apples and oranges to me. I don’t know much about baby formula but hopefully it’s not just corn starch and soy protein…
Thanks Mark. That makes a lot of sense about babies not having nightshades in their diet and thus avoiding gut inflamation.
Dallas said, “Start taking a fish oil supplement, at a dose of 0.75-1.0g per 10 pounds of body weight”
and i said – what? for real? i have fish oil pills that are 1 gram each [carlson brand pure cod liver oil] and are huge. the jar says take 1 daily. at Dallas’ dosage, i would need to choke down 14 of those mothers a day?
that seems like an excessive amount of pill popping. am i missing something here? am i taking the wrong kind of supplement?
Sammylou, good question. Quick answer: you’re taking a good fish oil, yes, but the dosage is what is often misunderstood. Robb Wolf recently made the “0.5-1.0g per 10 pounds of body weight” recommendation at a CrossFit Nutrition seminar I attended. Here’s a good link that should clarify fish oil dosage: http://www.performancemenu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6069
As far as capsules vs liquid, if you can find a liquid that you can take a teaspoon or two of, it’ll be a lot more cost-effective than capsules, and it saves the exhausting task of swallowing those capules
I’ve heard that Carlson’s makes a pretty palatable lemon-flavored fish oil (actually, I bought some of my own last night, so I’ll report back soon…). Hope this helps you understand the fish oil recommendations.
Dallas
On the fish/cod liver oil front, yeah the 0.5-1.0 g per 10# of bodyweight can be a lot of pills to throw down. For example, I follow Robb’s recommendation and do about 0.08 g per 10# so for me at 200#, that means 16g of EPA and/or DHA (we’re not talking fish oil count here, only the omega-3′s count). Rounding it out, I take 4 tbsp of Carlson’s Lemon Flavored Cod Liver Oil plus 4 Now Vitamins Double Strength Omega-3 pills every night. I started it last Tuesday and paired with Lo-Carb and High Fat/Protein (also Robb’s recommendation) and I have started to lean out some (visually and on the measurements). So I’m going to keep this level until someone says to me that I’m too lean, then I’ll cut it down to 0.4 g per 10#. By the way, Robb’s shake (coconut milk + water + unsweetened cocoa powder + chocolate whey) is incredible! Really something to look forward to after a tough WOD. Dallas, hopefully you’re happy with your CLO. It’s pretty good and if I didn’t have that, I don’t know how I would get my Omega-3′s. I just ordered the Orange flavor, I’ll keep you updated.
Awesome post, awesome website. I’m glad the only dairy foods I eat are butter/ghee. Instead of having this useful bit of information in the “comments” section, I strongly feel the article should be edited and talk about butter/ghee/cream, just in case some people read the article but don’t want to scroll through all the comments. Even though Dallas’ comment on these foods was excellent, they weren’t even mentioned in the article.
Can someone give me a heads up on 2 things:
1. Protein Powders- I realize that Brown Rice Proteing(Sun Warrior brand) and Whey(Various Brands) are not paleo…..correct? I just know that they have helped keep my diet clean and my protein intake up as I’ve been striving towards positivie changes.
2. Really no unsweetened almond milk? Is it considered unpaleo just because its processed?
Thank you.
Dust
@Dusty,
Man, I appreciate how hard you’re trying to make some big changes in your nutrition plan. I’ll see if I can help you out a little. Re: protein powders… no, they’re not technically “Paleo”, but remember, whether they’re “Paleo” or not isn’t as important as whether they’re actually good for us. And… processed milk products and concentrated, processed rice proteins do not fall into the “good for you” category. It’s not all black and white, because lots of clearly suboptimal foods have some potential benefits, but you have to weigh the potential benefits against the downsides, and neither whey nor rice protein have enough upsides to outweigh the downsides. So a few suggestions that might help keep your protein intake up: eggs (hard-boiled, poached, scrambled), chicken sausage (somewhat processed, but find an organic version), chicken/turkey breast, lean cuts of beef (doing leaner cuts is way more important if you’re not buying organic, grass-fed beef), salmon, tuna, haddock, etc. Hope this helps. If you need recipes, search for Performance Menu recipes. They’re AWESOME.
As far as the almond milk, I’ll not object so much if it’s unsweetened, but remember, when you remove the pulp/fiber (just like with fruit juices), you miss out on a ton of the Good Stuff, so I’d MUCH rather see you eat almonds than drink almond milk. But if homemade, unsweetened almond milk is the “worst” thing you ever eat, you’re doing just fine. And by “just fine”, I mean “better than almost everyone I know, including myself”
Keep fighting the good fight, and keep learning!
Dallas
Don’t forget about raw milk!
Hi,
I’ve been following some of the discussions on this board and have decided to ask a couple of questions, as I need a little guidance. Sorry for asking on a necro-thread.
There are stretches of time during the year where I need to avoid animal and dairy products, a couple of these stretches are 40 – 50 days at a time. Please suggest a healthy non-animal or dairy protein supplement that would fulfill this function.
Thanks for your time and keep up the great discussions!
Cheers
Mike Z,
I’m assuming the reasons you can’t do any animal/dairy products for extended time periods are non-negotiable religious/moral reasons. Unfortunately, there IS no “healthy” non-animal dense protein source, and removing ALL animal protein sources from your diet will undermine your fitness goals, so if you’re going to do that, you might have to pull back on your training during that time period. I’d really ramp up your fat intake during those time periods, too. Good luck!
Hi Dallas,
Thank you 8very* much for your quick and succinct reply.
I’ve been using a name-brand blended tri-part soy powder ( tastes better than most of its peers ) to supplement the protein I’ve been missing. You’re saying I should think about discontinuing this? What is the least of all evils when it comes to non-animal sources of protein? I’ll understand any advice in this regard will not mean you’re endorsing something you otherwise don’t like – ust handing out advice for a specific situation.
Regarding ramping up the fat intake: I assume you mean healthy fat – almonds, walnuts, e.v. olive oil in the salad?
Finally, with regards to training, I think I’ll proceed with a lighter blended kettlebell ( if kettlebell work can be called light, lol ) and free weight workout and try not to tax my sustem too much during those multi-week stretches.
Thanks again!
Mike,
Umm, all non-animal “protein sources” either a) aren’t actually dense protein sources, or b) have waaaaaay too many downsides to even consider using. So… for those weeks, ramp your fat way up, and use some extra-firm tofu, or – even “better” (meaning slightly less bad) – some tempeh or other fermented soy product. I suppose you could use a rice or vegetable protein shake, but shoot, those are no good, too. Your processed soy shake’s gotta go, though. The stuff is, like, poison. (Maybe that’s an exaggeration, but I can’t say ANYTHING good about it.) On fat intake: skip the walnuts and add lots of avocado and coconut and coconut milk (and olives and EVOO and macadamias and hazelnuts) instead. Best,
Dallas
Hi Guys,
I like to have a little half and half with my morning coffee. This is the only dairy I consume. I know it isn’t optimal and it would probably be better to use something like heavy cream or coconut milk but I don’t always have that option as I travel a lot for work and most coffee houses don’t carry those products. So my question is is this daily small amount of half and half enough to cause the so called “silent inflammation”? Thanks.
Alex,
In short, yes. Dairy proteins, especially those from conventional dairy farms, have some inflammatory properties, so if you’re looking for truly optimal, skip the half-and-half. As a good sub, you could hunt hard for some organic, grass-fed heavy cream. We’re fine with that, but good luck finding it. In order to get our “approval”, it’ll have to be organic AND grass-fed. (The heavy cream is mostly the fat portion and contains waaaaaay less of the protein constituents of milk or half-and-half.) All in all, dude, drinking your espresso or coffee back is your best option, anyway. Savour your excellent espresso/coffee or don’t drink it at all. Life is too short for bad coffee. Best,
Dallas
Just a quick line from me on my personal experience with this… I am one who depended daily on dairy and eventually thought by cutting down from whole to skim would be a great alternative.LOL… However, I did cut out cheese but ate usually two greek yogurts a day with 1 lg tbsp of peanut butter per and usually either a half or whole thing of cottage cheese. That proving to be a 1/3 to sometimes 1/2 of my meals in a day with of course fruits, veggies, and lean meats. Now when I look at that I think WOW, that was a lot of dairy that had to have been contributing to my digestive issues especially since being on the “Whole 30″ now for 23 days and those among the other things required to cut out have to led to no digestive issues at this time. I’ve have tried many of diets etc in my journey but I am finding that this is the one for me.
When reviewing dairy has the Weston A. Price definition of “real milk” been a part of the equation?
http://www.realmilk.com/what.html
There is so much, so called “natural food” in the store that is still far from what nature intended food to be. Research is often skewed because the results are based on what the majority of people are consuming, rather than the most pure sources available. It seems to me when you review the health benefits of “real milk” it also helps eradicate the same diseases as quitting dairy entirely. I do not question that going off dairy is harmful, but I’m unsure if I agree that “real dairy” is harmful nor can it be mixed in with the average “dairy” reviews/research.
Here is a article on the health benefits of real milk
http://www.realmilk.com/healthbenefits.html
Just as a side note..I see you responded about coffee to one of the commenters…isn’t caffeine a cause of inflammation and all kinds of other issues, even in small amounts? http://bodytechnician.com/caffeine.html
What are your thoughts on raw dairy? I have been doing grass fed cow milk and goat yogurt in moderation…
Ben,
Glad you’re doing so well sans dairy. Rock on!
Erica,
Exactly zero percent of our consideration of dairy as a “best choice” food has to do with whether it’s pasteurized or not. I know what the Weston Price folks have to say, but pour concerns with milk extend to raw milk as well. Ultimately, though, do what you think is best for you. On caffeine, we totally tell people to go waaaaay easy on it. Like some other plant-based “foods” like cocoa, the coffee obviously contains some stimulant compounds, but I don’t think that categorically rules those foods out. We make the case that coffee in serious moderation is totally okay, though we do recommend several caffeine-free weeks every few months. I think the link you posted dramatically overstates the potential effect that caffeine could have on folks. (And besides, some of the links they posted don’t even say that caffeine causes stress – what it does say is that caffeine is associated with stress markers. So… are they drinking coffee because they’re stressed, or vice versa? Be careful of confusing causation with correlation.) I don’t follow (or respect) fearmongers, even if I do agree with their ultimate recommendations. If you do better without caffeine, be honest with yourself and cut it out. Otherwise, we think it’s cool if you’re careful with it (like animal sources of saturated fat, or nightshades). Best,
Dallas
Christopher,
Dairy = dairy. The disproportionate insulin response and inflammatory aspects of dairy have little to do with whether it’s raw or not. We’d say, skip it altogether, but if you can’t live without your milk, then it’s your call.
Howdy,
I’ve maintained dairy in my diet because I always thought that the only harmful effect may be a lactose intolerance. Since I never experienced any noticeable detrimental effects, I’ve never considered cutting it. After reading this, I’ll have to conduct some additional research. I read the Weston A. Price Foundation’s recommendations long ago, as well, and had never heard of a pro-inflammatory/auto-immune effect from dairy consumption, and always thought that casein was pretty benign. So, first, thank you for introducing this concept to me.
Second, I heart greek yogurt. I have about 4 – 6 ounces a day about an hour before lunch to help trigger a satiating response. I figured that since it is a full fat yogurt, then it would help me subsequently eat a lighter lunch, especially since my lunch tends to be salad w/ chicken – moderate protein, high carb, low fat. So, I guess I’m now confused about the portion of this article dealing with insulin response from dairy. I’m not disputing it, but I have felt just as full after eating a cup of yogurt with some fruit as I have after eating a plate of eggs and sausage for breakfast. I would think that the insulin response after eating a cup of yogurt would leave me feeling hungry and tired very soon afterward? And I definitely eat a smaller lunch and feel full for a longer time, if I have yogurt a little bit before. I’m trying to reconcile the science and my own experience on this one.
Lastly, I like yogurt for its probiotic qualities. So if dairy products are destroying my gut lining, causing auto-immune and inflammation responses in my body, and spiking my insulin level – I need a new source of healthy gut flora. You won’t see me eating all of my veggies raw, and sauerkraut just isn’t really appealing at 11:30 in the morning. What’s a good source healthy gut flora that I could use to replace my mid-morning snack?
In advance, I appreciate your help.
Andrew,
We like Greek yogurt, too, but it’s in the same category as Nutella-stuffed French toast – delicious, but not healthy. As for your question on the insulinogenic effect of milk/yogurt, don’t think of “insulin response” and “hungry and tired very soon afterward” as synonymous. That’s certainly a potential effect, but just because milk is insulinogenic doesn’t mean that it’ll make you more hungry. When you’re eating the full-fat Greek yogurt, the fat and protein are somewhat satiating, so that’s why you’re not necessarily starving right afterward. And as for the “probiotic qualities”… those are only necessary IF you’re constantly assaulting your gut with inflammatory foods (grains, legumes, and dairy) and processed foods/sugars. And if you’re eating plenty of fresh, locally-sourced vegetables and some fruit, you’re getting some natural bacteria from that, too. Whoever told you you needed “probiotics” was either a) selling a probiotic supplement (or dairy products!), or b) trying to repair the damage done to unhealthy intestines from chronically consuming terrible food. I don’t know where you got your recommendation, but I (kindly, gently) disagree.
I have a query, what could I eat for breakfast? I have a severe intolerance to eggs, (gag at the smell of them even) My daughter is anaphylactic to them also.. Porridge is out so what are the alternatives?
Thanks for all this amazing info..My husband and I plan to start tomorrow..
If you look into Chronobiotic nutrition it says you should eat things that grow closest to the sun in the mornings…fruit and nuts mainly. I haven’t read the book Yes, No, Maybe By Marcella Vonn Harting so I do not understand all of the details, but I’ve heard people have some good results just from switching the time of day that they eat certain foods.
Jo,
Smoked wild-caught salmon and honeydew melon is a great, easy breakfast (more salmon than melon). Try a grass-fed burger, or Applegate Farms chicken sausage. Welcome aboard!
Erica,
Thanks for the info. If we’ve got some free time, I’ll check it out.
Dallas commented: “As a good sub, you could hunt hard for some organic, grass-fed heavy cream. We’re fine with that, but good luck finding it. In order to get our “approval”, it’ll have to be organic AND grass-fed.”
Ah… I’m lucky enough to have access to a grass-fed dairy locally. Been getting the heavy cream from them and making my own butter from it. With it being far more fat than ‘milk’, and the buttermilk coming out when making the butter… is there really much of the milk proteins left to worry about? I’d like to keep using this butter, its amazing stuff compared to any store-bought, but I could get by without it. I’ve got my saved bacon fat and coconut oil.
Now, giving up my pepperjack cheese… that’s gonna be a tougher one.
Ian,
Read our Butter Manifesto for our take on butter. We clarify our own organic, pastured butter, and we were amazed at how much non-fat “stuff” there was left over. So, yeah, we think it’s worth the effort to clarify it (and remove the milk proteins). But dude, the pepperjack’s gotta go.
Best,
Dallas
… perhaps pasteurized/homogenized COW dairy, however,
the paleo cry “do not eat dairy” is highly suspect – while paleo’s generally have a pretty good f-off attitude towards conventional wisdom, they accept conventional anthropological assumptions that our paleo pals were not smart enough or capable enough to husband animals that provided milk/dairy nutritional adjunct… bbbbzzzzzt! – wrong!- a close examination of the evidence leads to the conclusion that we very well could have and did keep at least goats – if not other mammals long into our paleo past enjoying the delectable white gold…
Check out the argument here: http://daiasolgaia.com/?p=1302
Ravi @ DaiaSolgaia.com
Ravi,
You must have missed our point. Our positions are, and always have been, focused on health, with evolutionary context as a broad but general foundation. So whether your argument holds any water (or not) is irrelevant to our take on dairy. We think that non-human milk proteins (and protein hormones) can cause some health problems, though individual tolerances (or perceived tolerances) to dairy vary significantly. Likewise, the recent research that shows that humans may have consumed grains as long ago as 30,000 years is totally irrelevant – because grains have some profound health consequences for us today, and that’s what matters to me. Another point: don’t use the willingness to challenge conventional wisdom as a justification to throw out all scientific evidence against things you like. Thanks for your perspective.
im a paleo newb so please be gentle
another question in regards to raw milk. i had read somewhere that people who are lactose intolerant can drink raw milk with NO signs of the intolerance at all. it was mentioned that the pasturization process is what causes all the allergens/toxins in the milk.
i know paleo states that milk is milk… however, is there/should there be a distinction between raw and regular? who’s to say our ancestors didnt drink straight from the cow?
Are their any articles from peer reviewed scientific journals that have published any of this info? Not that I’m a doubter, but I always like to read the original source materials, and how they conducted their research and set up their studies.
We’re new to this community but my husband, 14 month old son and I are taking the challenge! We’re into week one (newbies, I know!) but feeling good and “less heavy”/bloated. Ithink it will be a good move for us on our healthy eating journey. My question is regarding calcium. I’m still nursing my son and he is just starting his solid-food journey. I’m looking for ways to get enough calcium for both myself (since he takes a lot of mine through nursing) and for him (as a young/developing child). We decided before he was born we weren’t going to wean him onto cow’s milk but it seems a lot of the other options for calcium-rich foods are things like molasses (natural sweetner), chia seeds (grain), yogurt, kefir, and cheese…all not allowed in the challenge. Any ideas and thoughts for ways to get both of us eating enough calcium in our diets? Also, (separate topic) I’m confused…Is coconut milk “legal” in the challenge? Thanks for any thoughts and advice! We’ve been enjoying your website, information and blog!
@Sarah: The calcium question is a complex one, but the good news is that there is plenty of calcium in fresh vegetables and fruit for even growing kids and nursing moms. (Dairy isn’t the ONLY source, despite what the Got Milk people would lead you to believe.)
Eating a diet with adequate protein actually helps you absorb calcium that much better, and excluding foods like grains and legumes (which contain anti-nutrients that block calcium absorption) all contribute to strong, healthy bones. Plenty of fresh vegetables and fruit (and a wide variety on your plate) also provide a good balance of a wide number of vitamins, minerals and phytochemicals throughout the body.
In addition, calcium isn’t the only mineral that goes into building strong, healthy bones – for example, Vitamin D is necessary to build calcium into bones, so getting your 15 minutes of sunshine a day, or supplementing in a smart fashion, will also help. Magnesium is also important for bone strength and density, and a magnesium supplement like Natural Calm may also help you sleep better at night. (Bonus!) You can read more about these supplements here (http://whole9life.com/2010/09/supplements-part-ii/) – check with your doctor, of course, before beginning any new dietary or supplementation plan.
Coconut milk, as it doesn’t come from dairy cows, is A-OK on the Whole30. We recommend you buy the stuff that comes in a can instead of in a milk-like carton, as usually milk substitutes are sweetened and stabilized with not so great stuff. The brand we buy contains coconut, water and guar gum, all ingredients that are Whole30-approved.
Hope that helps,
Melissa
Melissa, Thank you! That is helpful and thanks for the quick response. We’re enjoying it (thus far) and your resources/blog are really helpful on the journey. Thank you!
Dallas (or Melissa),
In response to the protein shake question, could you substitute a “natural” protein shake instead of the normal, super processed Whey brands?
For example, I am a professional athlete (although some may not see Golfers as athletes, I do). I spend about as much time in the gym as I do practicing on my game. After a workout, I usually head straight to the Golf Course for practice and to stretch my muscles back out to keep them in “Golf Shape.” Therefore, I have pretty much relied on quick, meal replacement shakes to get nutrients into my body after a workout.
I used to use the normal Optimum Nutrition Whey brands for protein shakes, but since I have gone Paleo, I have started making my own.
An Example shake would involve Egg Whites (about a cup powdered or liquid), 4 ice cubes, 1/2 cup – 3/4 cup fruit of choice (Strawberries, Kiwi, Pineapple, Mango, anything), 5tbs Coconut Milk. Optional Cinnamon or a few nuts. Throw it all in a blender and blend everything up.
Would this be something that could get a Whole30 stamp of approval in substitute for a protein shake derived from milk protein?
I’m a huge Dairy consumer but I’ve had to cut back a little bit lately. This blog has a bunch of gerat perspectives about health and dairy, though. Thanks, Dallas and Melissa!
I saw this recently on dairy and whey:
http://twitter.com/#!/DrEades/status/100600941677514752
“Individuals with Laron syndrome who carry mutations in the growth hormone receptor (GHR) gene that lead to severe congenital IGF-1 deficiency with decreased insulin/IGF-1 signaling (IIS) exhibit reduced prevalence rates of acne, diabetes and cancer. Western diet with high intake of hyperglycemic carbohydrates and insulinotropic dairy over-stimulates IIS. The reduction of IIS in Laron subjects unmasks the potential role of persistent hyperactive IIS mediated by Western diet in the development of diseases of civilization and offers a rational perspective for dietary adjustments with less insulinotropic diets like the Paleolithic diet.”
…
Future efforts should be undertaken to lower the high insulinemic index of milk (I.I. 140) and other whey-based milk products to reach values of beef (I.I. 51) or cheese (I.I. 45) [16,29]. Furthermore, combinations of hyperglycemic carbohydrates and insulinotropic dairy with potentiating effects on IIS should be restricted. “
Hey Whole30 team,
I want to apologize in case you’ve answered this question already, but I couldn’t find the answer when I did a few quick ctrl+f searches in the comments, so here goes:
I was on the verge of starting the GOMAD diet in order to gain weight. I know dairy is clearly not paleo, but it seems that a lot of CF’ers have had good experience with this diet and gaining strength / mass.
However, I’d much rather keep to with the paleo diet that I have going right now. Do you have any suggestions on how to gain mass / strength on the paleo diet. My knowledge of the diet is a little limited. I eat nuts, fruits, veggies, fats, and proteins as prescribed, but don’t know of any plans within the diet for which foods to “focus on” for a mass gaining diet.
And a secondary question, do you happen to know why GOMAD is still so popular amongst CF’ers, even though CF advocates paleo and dairy != paleo?
Thanks
@Ben: Sorry for the delay in response, our comment queue is out of control. As for Whole30 approved protein “shakes”, the only thing we’d approve for that program is a shake you make yourself, with whole food ingredients. So, raw (or cooked) eggs or egg whites in a blender with coconut milk and some fruit pass the test. Egg white protein powder – even the stuff that’s 100% egg white – does not.
Outside of the Whole30, we do use a 100% egg white protein powder from time to time for PWO nutrition. They taste like junk, but that’s the price we pay for being lazy and not making real food.
@Hggh: Fascinating – makes good sense to me. Thanks for sharing.
@Andrew D: Dallas JUST wrote an awesome Clean Mass Gain article for Performance Menu. You can read our post here (with the link to the article): http://whole9life.com/2011/08/clean-mass-gain/ This should answer your question about how to gain mass without resorting to something like GOMAD.
As for why the CF population continues to go that route, that’s easy. Because it works! Milk makes you grow, which means you’ll put on mass (most likely muscle AND fat, but it’s all mass) and potentially even improve your performance in your chosen sport. Of course, in our opinion, it also undermines your health (which is the entire reason you exercise in the first place)… but for those with a serious performance bias, milk fits the “get bigger” bill quite well. Of course, we’ve got a HEALTH bias, which is why Dallas did the research (personally) for his clean mass gain project.
Best,
Melissa
I would just like to pop in with an observation. I recently found this website and agree with much it has to say. Seems to be some controversy on the subject of dairy. Maybe my insight can clarify someone’s position.
Brett_nyc brought up the point of babies and milk. First, human breast milk has evolved to be beneficial for the growth of HUMAN babies. It has everything a human baby needs to develop in the first months (maybe years) of its life. It even has antibodies and all those things a human baby needs to stay protected from its environment and to stay healthy, so long as the mother is eating a healthy diet.
Cows milk has evolved to be beneficial to a baby COW, not a baby HUMAN. Remember, a cows digestive system is far different from a human digestive system. For one, a cow has four stomachs to help digest fibers and proteins that are inedible to a human. It follows that the milk would have things in it that humans either have a hard time, or even can’t, digest. I personally have a hard time trying to figure how something that was (evolutionarily speaking) made for a cow can be really healthy for a human.
A cows diet is mainly grass, or grasses. Can any of us base our diets on grass? The main point here is that milk, any animal milk except for human breast milk, and therefore the products made from these milks, should best be fed to the baby animal that the milk was originally intended for. After all, when was the last time you saw or heard of a dairy farmer feeding human breast milk to a cow?
Hiram – that’s an excellent point, one that we make quite effectively in our Foundations of Nutrition workshops. Context matters – both biological and natural! Thanks for contributing.
Melissa
What about raw grass-fed milk? It’s benefits far out way all the other kinds…right? I, myself don’t consume much dairy and if I do, it’s raw. I only get it for my husband and kids but I thought I would ask your opinion:) Thanks!
Alison,
Obviously, if you’re going to consume any animal products, those from a more “natural” source (raised in their natural environment, fed their natural diet and not exposed to toxins or drugs) is going to be a healthier choice. It’s safe to assume the raw milk of which you speak comes from cows which are 100% grass fed, not given antibiotics or hormones, and not exposed to most synthetic pesticides, fertilizers, heavy metals or other environmental toxins. (That’s pretty much the standard for raw milk anyway.)
The difference between raw (grass-fed, organic) milk and normally processed (grass-fed, organic) milk is simply the pasteurization process. Pasteurization is designed to do two things: destroy certain disease-carrying germs, and the prevent the souring of milk. To accomplish this, milk is heated to around 150 degrees F. for at least a half an hour.
Proponents of raw milk say that heating milk to such a high temperature destroys some nutritious components, destroying part of the vitamin C, encouraging growth of harmful bacteria, destroying valuable enzymes necessary to digest the components of the milk, and diminishing the calcium and iodine bioavailability/content of the milk.
While we agree none of those things are awesome, our concerns with milk STILL apply, whether it’s raw or not. The lactose + milk proteins are still highly insulinogenic, the casein can still be inflammatory, and the whey still promotes immune cross-reactivity/stimulation (all of which can promote autoimmune conditions).
So in our view, it doesn’t really matter whether the milk is raw or not – the concerns we have all still apply. However, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t experiment yourself with milk’s effects. That’s what our Whole30 program is all about – removal, reintroduction and awareness. We definitely encourage you to stick with 100% grass-fed, organic sources of all animal products, however – but raw or pasteurized is up to you.
Best,
Melissa
PS It’s worth noting that we are in the process of revising this manifesto. Much has changed in our thought process since we first wrote it, and new scientific literature has come to light. We’ll add some information about raw milk into the new version, since it’s a hot topic these days.
Melisa or (Dallas),
I just recently started to cut all grain products and Milk off my diet it’s being a struggle by far my question to you both is this. How do you feel about drinking a protein shake post-workout? Any advice is appreciated.
Thanks,
Tony
Dear Melissa
I’ve landed on this site whilst trying to research effects of paleo diet on children in conjunction with calcium deficiency. I thought I would feedback to you my experience in case it helps with future research and for feedback to and hopefully from from other families in my position.
I am a coeliac and so is my son now aged 8 (diagnosed at age 4). My daughter has also just been diagnosed (age 3). The effects of being a coeliac were chronic and debilitating but life changed about 2 weeks into a gluten free diet. The only thing that didn’t go away was my daytime tiredness. It was much improved but gradually has crept back. The only other remaining problem was recurring sinusitis. Quite extreme mood swings affect both my son and I even on the gluten free diet.
The reason I’m writing is that I pulled myself off dairy about 4 weeks ago and I have never felt better. I am contemplating pulling the children off but was initially worried about calcium levels. I started the children on a paleo diet yesterday. The 8 year old is rebelling – the 3 year old is young enough to eat anything to please me and I’m following the advice by throwing out any temptations. Both children have previously eaten a huge amount of dairy, particularly cheese sticks and full cream milk and also (yes bad mother) peperami as snacks in lunch box. I had to move my son from his former school because he was bullied about his ‘gluten free – weird’ lunch box. The pressure of trying to give him a ‘normal’ looking lunch box has made me slip into habits and I woke up in a cold sweat recently realizing that I am feeding my children processed crap in their lunch boxes (ps lunchbox always includes raw veg and fruit also – but its the last to be eaten).
My son’s only enjoyment is milk and cheese with gluten free crackers. The rest of the time he lives on fillet steak rare , salmon, fresh veg (I’m lucky he eats most) and jacket potatoes with butter and or beans and cheese. Also cauliflower cheese a favorite – see my dilemma?? My main problem is that he won’t try new foods and his main staple diet is boring and expensive! I don’t know what I would do if he suddenly went of steak or salmon but the time is coming I’m sure. My daughter loves bread and pasta so paleo will be a challenge – at least my son doesn’t like bread, rice or pasta anyway.
Initial questions:
An occasional potato with butter ok? I am trying to ease him into the diet and its an easy fix for other parents to give him on a play date. Butter seems to be debatable so I’m sticking with it in moderation and cutting it out of cooking.
Tinned tuna and mayonnaise if I cut out the sweetcorn? This is a lunchbox favorite of his.
My son suffered from extreme constipation even on a gluten free diet and was on laxatives every day under the care of a gastroenterologist. After research I put him on 150mg effervescent magnesium supplement every day and the problem amazingly cleared up – but it comes back if I take away the supplement. He is now, however zinc deficient and I am really confused about the dangers of single supplementation i.e. the magnesium is causing a zinc deficiency – what will introducing a zinc supplement do -and how much should I give? He also has a congenital kidney problem so I have to factor in not over stressing the kidneys when I supplement. Do you have any helpful resources on this topic? Do you recommend a calcium supplement for kids who are dairy and gluten free. Bone density is always flagged up as a concern for coeliacs.
I would be pleased for any feedback or comments on the above.
Thanks
coeliac mum
Celiacmum: You took your child out of his school because some other kids laughed at his lunch?? I think your priorities need some rearranging.
The proper response to bullies is: a) tell the school they must not tolerate such behavior, and the kids who do it must be disciplined; b) teach your son how to deal with such people, because the world is full of them and he can’t run away every time.
Don’t focus on the lunch. The lunch is not the problem. Bullies will taunt you for anything: clothes, mannerisms, you name it. There is no pleasing them, so don’t try.
Steak and salmon are pretty expensive, but try cheaper cuts of meat (chuck, etc.) and other kinds of fish (if he’ll eat canned tuna, try sardines or mackerel). Also, I have to wonder are you getting enough fat in the diet? If you cut out dairy, all those calories will need to come from somewhere else.
Thanks for all the good information Melissa and fellow submitters.
Will there be an update on the Dairy Manifesto soon? Seems like it’d be good (from the general consensus of comments) to have some bullets on greek yogurt, ghee, butter, raw milk, calcium, raising children, and nursing children.
Thanks again for answering all of these great questions!
I would love an update as well, as I’ve been dying to try raw grass-fed milk…but I can totally go without it.
Please include more information on cheese specificly in the manifesto upgrade. Cheese is a very high-fat dairy without carb, the only potential issue I can see is casein. As mentioned above, the protein seems unable to cross into the bloodstream on it’s own.
So there shouldn’t be any problem with cheese included in an otherwise strikt (read: grain, legume, dairy other than cheese – free) paleo diet, right?
Also I’d like your thoughts on Chris Kressers “pro raw dairy for furtility and pregnancy” view.
[Full-fat dairy, preferably raw 16 oz. (fat soluble vitamins, calcium, protein)]
gave up dairy a few months ago and don’t even miss it. but always had a question about whey…can’t live without it – always drink it postworkout. highly processed by product of dairy.so many xfitting friends of mine consume it,too.and it has been found sooo beneficial for you. everything – from amino acid profile, anabolic effect, to revving up your immune system. I am interested what you guys think about it and whether it’s part of your diet. thank you kindly.
Okay, I am sure that I think I know what you will say already, but I want to ask it anyway. Where does 24 hour yogurt fit into this? Previously I was on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet to heal SIBO/leaky gut. A big part of that is making your own yogurt (for 24 hours to get all the lactose out) with some good “bugs” to heal the gut. Since starting my Whole30 I have been taking a probiotic to replace the yogurt, but I am not getting the same results. Thoughts?
While I am interested in this new eating plan, I have a serious issue. I am currently taking coumadin. Which is a blood thinner (I had pulmonary embolisms) in my heart and lungs. As a result, I am taking this medicine until next year. Leafy green vegetables and other foods raise Vitamin K levels, which affects my blood levels which affects the medicine. Any suggestions?
This is my first time commenting on a Whole9 post, hello everyone.
I know several people have asked about raw milk, but I don’t have access to it. I buy Sky Top Farms grass fed whole milk from Whole Foods. It’s unhomogenized, so the fat is still in the milk. According to them, it’s minimally pasteurized. I’ve been battling intense sugar cravings because of night eating syndrome, and I wake up craving donuts, or pastries, which I don’t buy, because I don’t live alone. Drinking a glass of this milk when I wake up at fills me without needing sugar. I read It Starts With Food, and I’m familiar with Mark Sisson’s, Robb Wolf’s, and Loren Cordain’s positions on dairy, and you two, Mark, and Robb place emphasis on the n=1 practice of self experimentation. I’m 6’2, 220lbs, extremely active and lean except for love handles that I’ve never been able to completely lose. If I eat according to the Whole 9 Success Guide, completely cut sugar and drink a glass of milk 2 or 3 times a night, would that prevent me from burning off my love handles? Please bear in mind that I usually wake up, and eat sugary, grain filled pastries with unhomogenized milk, so instead of that, would a glass of Sky Top milk stall weight loss? Thanks for reading, and I understand if this information is too much.
Hi
Just came across this now!
I have been giving my toddler (15months) Greek Yoghurt for a while now, he is otherwise 100% paleo. But there are days when he is teething and he jsut won’t eat ANYTHING I have prepared and I think the smooth coolness of the yoghurt helsp his gums… and often it’s the only thing I can get into him.
Am I a terrible mother? I’m trying to keep him as paleo as possible as I beleive this is the healthiest route…
We are grossly behind in comments on this post – sincere apologies.
@Tony: We’re not generally big fans of liquid food, especially those made from less healthy ingredients like whey or soy. You’ll do much better all around with eating real food PWO, but if you know you tolerate whey well and want to play around with a protein shake post-workout, at least the Stronger Faster Healthier stuff (on our sidebar) is grass-fed and organic. You can also look into a 100% egg white protein powder – tastes like junk, but that’s the price we pay for being lazy. (It’s what we’ll use when we’re on the road.)
@Coeliac Mum: First, we answer your questions on calcium here: http://whole9life.com/2012/02/what-about-calcium/
Butter is generally A-OK, but if you’re really concerned about cross-reactivity with dairy proteins (important if you’re celiac), try clarified butter or ghee instead, with the proteins removed. (http://whole9life.com/butter). Tinned tuna or salmon and homemade mayo is fine too – avoid the store-bought stuff, as it’s always made with less healthy oils.
@Christine, we are in the process of updating this manifesto now, with bullet points about yogurt/kefir, raw milk, and butter/ghee.
@Anna, as we explain in ISWF, the casein in cheese may be problematic in the gut all on its own, especially if you’re sensitive to gluten, or have a histamine intolerance. And not all cheese is lactose-free, so you may still have issues there as well. We’ll talk about cheese in our updated manifesto. As for full-fat, pastured, organic dairy, as we say in ISWF, that may be a decent choice for certain people in certain contexts – but you’ll have to do a Whole30 for yourself to know whether that’s something you tolerate well or not. It’s not a blanket recommendation in any sense, pregnant or not.
@CougarCat: We generally discourage whey in our Whole30 and post-Whole30 for most folks for a number of reasons – read It Starts With Food for the details.
@Cindy: Yogurt (full-fat, from pastured, organically-raised animals) may be a good and healthy choice for some folks – it’s about as healthy as dairy gets in our books, as long as all of the above criteria are met. You’ll just have to make sure you tolerate it well, and that it’s actually got the good probiotics in it – the homemade stuff will, Dannon Lite and Fit, not so much.
@Jinks: I’d recommend asking your doctor this question – but from what I understand, it’s not about eliminating veggies with vitamin K, it’s about including them in proper rotation with the rest of your vegetable intake so you don’t ever get too much. Eating a wide variety of vegetables in your daily diet should take care of this naturally, but please check with your doctor first if you plan to up your veggie intake, and follow his/her recommendations.
@Alexander: It’s impossible to say whether the dairy will hinder weight loss efforts – but if very well might. Milk is more than just protein, fat, and carbohydrates – it contains growth factors and immune factors that effect your metabolism. So you’ll have to play around with your glass or three of milk, and see how it affects your body comp. Maybe try pulling it out for a month and keeping everything else the same, to see how your body changes?
@Amy: Of course you’re not a bad mother – you’re doing the best you can with the situation at hand! I’d far prefer you seek out a full-fat, grass-fed, organic yogurt instead of the Greek stuff – that’s factory farmed and contains none of the good, healthy benefits of a healthier form of yogurt. You should be able to find a grass-fed (pastured) organic yogurt in your local health food store, either cow’s milk or sheep’s milk – and that would be a healthier and more beneficial yogurt choice for your teething kiddo. You could also try other foods with the same texture and consistency – mashed/frozen bananas thawed into a pudding, or an avocado/banana smoothie chilled. Maybe that would work just as well!
Melissa
I hardly drop responses, but I browsed some remarks on this
And, if you are posting on additional online sites, I’d like to follow you.
page The Dairy Manifesto | Whole9 | Let us change your life.
. I do have a couple of questions for you if it’s okay. Could it be just me or do a few of these comments appear as if they are coming from brain dead visitors?
Would you list of the complete urls of all your shared pages like your
Facebook page, twitter feed, or linkedin profile?